I remember you mentioning that you were going to post regarding this topic, but I never saw this post! I think the reason we have to be convicted about obeying the law is because we often fail to be truly discipled as new believers. Many of our teachers and churches fail to think through all the implications of the expectations for followers of Jesus, and thus we, too, fail to see the implications.

Personally, I’m sure I read Romans 13 several dozens of times without really reading what was written there. Meditation is a lost art, and we need to spend time working through the implications of Scripture. There are so many ways Christians are expected to bear fruit (Romans 12, Galatians 5, etc.), yet how deeply do these passages impact us? We cannot simply race across (or put across for that matter) the surface of the Bible; we must spend time examining the depths as well.

In my opinion, the typical “Christian” in America resembles a canoe rowing across the ocean, easily tossed by the waves, instead of a nuclear submarine, plunging the depths.

That’s why I have to be convicted about stuff in the Bible all the time.

Todd

Todd Youngs last blog post..How to: Filter the Internet for Free

I hope you do not think it is you against the world in this conversation. One of my best friends actually agrees with all that your saying. However, I think what is being argued by you, in my estimation, is more of a political argument. “Should the government be able to make speed limit laws and enforce them as they do” would be the question you are seeking to answer. I am not seeking to answer, let alone ask, that question.

My argument is based upon the text found in Romans 13 where Paul is not debating the politics behind the government. He simply states that we are to obey the governing authority because “there is no authority except from God.”

So, yes, if you are intentionally setting your cruise control over the speed limit, then you are sinning because you are disobeying God according to Romans 13. If it is sin because you are disobeying God then the act of speeding is not morally neutrally as per the text.

The speed limit is not in direct contradiction to the Word of God; therefore, there is no call for civil disobedience. You have not answered my question regarding whether or not we should obey the speed limit as Christians even though others do not obey it. The bottom line is, in my estimation, that Romans 13 commands us to obey the speed limit because to not obey the posted speed limit is to disobey God and that is sin.

Terry Delaneys last blog post..I Forgot to Write This Last Night

And again: Terry, you and Stan are both talking before you listen.

In reading Terry’s original post and his comments above, it seems to that is gives thoughtful responses and does not speak before listening. As for me, while I’m not as thoughtful as Terry, I did read all the posts above and attempted to make a reasoned argument. I concede your point that you did NOT say speeding was morally neutral. Still, I think you have misrepresented both of us.

Now to the issue of speeding. You stated in your last post: Driving any particular speed is morally neutral. It is the law that makes it wrong. And if the law is not enforced, then I argue we have no obligation to obey.

The law is enforced. That I can guarantee you. Do the police (and other officers of the state) pull over everyone who is speeding? No. They simply do not have the resources to do so. What do they do? They utilize the resources at their disposal in the most efficient manner they can. They have certain time needs for murder investigations, theft investigations, breaking up domestic disputes, paperwork, meetings, etc… In addition to these and other responsibilities they enforce traffic laws. Just because it’s not enforced 100% of the time does not mean it’s not enforced. If anything short of 100% enforcement meant we didn’t have to obey the particular law, then according to your last post we have no obligation to obey pirated software laws.

You stated: Still only, “It’s the law, so obey it…” which completely begs the question.

Begs the question? How does it do that? Are we not to obey our rulers? Obviously if our rulers ask us to disobey God we are to obey God rather than men. Traffic laws certainly do not ask us to disobey God.

You also state: The telling point is your quickness to tell me that 9 MPH over is definitely a sin, but you haven’t spoken nearly as forcefully about 4 MPH over.

Terry mentioned intentionally going 9 over so that you are not going 10 over, then you know you are doing wrong and you are doing what you think will keep you from getting caught.

You also state: I mean, if we’re being consistent, and you’re right, then anyone who normally sets their cruise control at 57 in a 55 is living in habitual, unrepentant sin. Are you willing to go there? Maybe you are. I’m just asking.

Yes. If someone’s normal course of action is to deliberately drive even 1 MPH over the stated speed limit, they are living in habitual, unrepentant sin. I don’t know how you could argue otherwise.

Paul writes : Romans 13:1-2 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Stan writes:
“Brent,
I think we need to be careful in this debate to distinguish between morally neutral actions (driving a particular speed)…

I would argue that speeding is not a morally neutral action. ”

Stan, you missed my point completely. Did you read the whole paragraph? I never said speeding was morally neutral. In fact, I said the exact opposite. And your pirated music example still doesn’t speak to the issue. The people are not mad at you for obeying the law.

And Terry writes:
“Brent,
I do have one other question regarding your driving past the authorities at an acceptable speed. Who is our standard for right and wrong? God or man?”

Terry, you and Stan are both talking before you listen. My whole point is that as to driving a particular speed, man (specifically the legislature and police) is the authority and therefore also our standard. Driving any particular speed is morally neutral. It is the law that makes it wrong. And if the law is not enforced, then I argue we have no obligation to obey.

I haven’t read any response to this specific argument yet. Still only, “It’s the law, so obey it…” which completely begs the question. The telling point is your quickness to tell me that 9 MPH over is definitely a sin, but you haven’t spoken nearly as forcefully about 4 MPH over.

I mean, if we’re being consistent, and you’re right, then anyone who normally sets their cruise control at 57 in a 55 is living in habitual, unrepentant sin. Are you willing to go there? Maybe you are. I’m just asking.

I am just learning this stuff. Tony is the html master.

Terry Delaneys last blog post..Catching Up on the Lord’s Day

Just to be clear, though, are you saying there is no time for civil disobedience? Corrie Ten Boom defied the Nazis; civil rights protagonists defied segregation laws; colonists defied the Brits (the success of which we celebrated three days ago).

And let us not forget the Egyptian midwives who defied the edict to kill Jewish babies; Daniel’s breach of the prayer laws; the fiery furnace; the lion’s den; Rahab’s lie; the wise men disobeying Herod; and that Peter and Paul were killed in large part precisely because they defied the authorities (religious or otherwise).

The text is not dimished (Romans 13:1-2), but neither is it absolute. After all, the next verses teach “For rulers are not a terror to GOOD conduct, but to BAD. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good.”

Sometimes governing authorities go wrong, and reverse the order, punishing the good and praising the bad. Is there still an absolute requirement to submit? If so, we condemn many believers.
Speeding may not be the appropriate point at which to resist, but that does not eliminate the possibility that there is such a point.

(BTW: sorry for the CAPS: how do y’all do the italics and bold and stuff?)

Rob Faircloths last blog post..REVIEW: The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism

None of that diminishes the text Terry quotes above.

I agree with your earlier point that such things as speeding and declining to wear helmets are not morally neutral actions. The problem, as these discussions demonstrate, is both deciding when the authority itself no longer deems adherence necessary (lantern before the horse/spitting on the sidewalk/speeding 2 miles over the limit) and also at what point the authority has become so oppressive as to warrant civil disobedience.

Is speeding ever civil disobedience? Or not wearing helmets? What about driving on ethanol when corn shortages are forcing other countries into food shortages and starvation?

The line may be bold, but it never seems to be painted in the same place twice.

Rob Faircloths last blog post..REVIEW: The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism

Helmets on bicycles are a different story. Let kids be kids. Enough of the babying of our kids already. I think bicycle helmets are for wimps.

Terry Delaneys last blog post..Is the Week Over Yet?

I am amazed at the amount of government intrusion into our lives. I find that frustrating.

Anyway, I’ve been wearing my seat belt (while driving, not continuously) since 1985. I have also required all passengers in my vehicle to wear their seat belt as I don’t want them to become a projectile and hurt me. It being a requirement by law has never come into play for me since I’ve been doing it for so long.

Great question.

For legal purposes, the distinction only matters in assessing whether a breach is justified by necessity. Speeding to get your pregnant wife to the hospital may be justified; killing another driver because of that speed, or speeding to be on time for church, may not be.

At one time I justified speeding by my willingness to suffer the consequences if caught, refusing to slow down when other drivers warned me that a trooper was around the bend.

Has anyone else ever heard someone ‘thank God’ for making them slow down just before a trooper hit them with radar? Or thank him for causing them to stop any sort of illegal behavior just before being caught red-handed?

Not to stir the pot any more than it is already roiling, but what about seat belt laws?

Rob Faircloths last blog post..WHAT TO INCLUDE IN CHILDREN’S CURRICULUM

I guess “fish” is a low density keyword here.

I do have one other question regarding your driving past the authorities at an acceptable speed. Who is our standard for right and wrong? God or man?

Terry Delaneys last blog post..Is the Week Over Yet?